I have to get certifications as part of my job and because all of my coworkers and I keep failing these really hard tests, we aren’t allow to study during downtime on the clock. We were told to study on our own time.
Getting certs is part of what is required for me to get bigger raises and get promoted and all that jazz. I don’t want to use my personal time for this. None of the people who are in this predicament do.
I have a meeting in a few days to discuss goals and I need to figure out how to tell my boss that using my own time for work shit is unacceptable.
I really like this job other than this one aspect of it and I don’t want to make anyone mad, but I need to express my boundaries and all that
If your company, for which your boss is an agent and therefore part of, is ASKING YOU to get this cert, then the study is labor done as a part of you position. You need to be paid for this work.
If the company is only making it a prerequisite for advancement, and not asking you to get it per se, then reimbursement is reasonable.
If you happen to have a Union then check with them.
If you need a cert to keep your current position and it wasn’t required when you started, that’s one thing.
If you need a cert to promote and climb within the company that’s totally different. That’s education and qualifications that you need if you choose to climb the ladder and make more. There isn’t really any reason the company should have to pay you for this time for you to study and obtain those certifications. If you decide you want more money, then you will decide to study outside of work. If you wanted a position that required a bachelor’s degree at your company, would you expect the company to pay for your degree and pay for your time at college?
I definitely expect companies to provide continued education opportunities to employees that they value. There’s a difference between taking a couple of online classes and asking the company to pay for a bachelor’s degree, so of course each company is going to have to figure out what works best for them, but only foolish bosses would throw away perfectly good employees who want to improve.
You state “Getting certs is part of what is required for me to get bigger raises and get promoted and all that jazz.” So this is not a required part of your CURRENT position. If you want a better position, you will need to invest in yourself, using some of your own time. Sounds like the employer is already paying for the courses and tests, the rest is now up to you.
Do not go in to your meeting with a bad attitude, you will just piss off your boss. Accept that if you want a promotion and higher pay that you are going to have to give up some personal time to get there. Remember, they’ve already given you time, and you failed, multiple times from what you wrote, so now it is time for you to hunker down and do it on your own time.
Exactly this. I would be ecstatic if my employer paid for my cert tests. I pay for them myself and study on my own time, then leverage them during annual reviews to show why I deserve promotions and raises.
For context, I went from homeless to six figures because of this kind of hustle. If you want to just tread water then do so, otherwise you need to put in the work on your own time.
“I don’t feel it is in my personal benefit to spend my energy and time outside of work, chasing a end goal that will not favor me personally. This certificate was not a requirement for me being hired, and I am not being reimbursed for said spent time and energy. If this is something that the company is interested in pursuing, I am more than happy to continue working on it as long as I am reimbursed for my time. A chance at promotion with no compensation in current day, does not guarantee enough of a reward for it to be worth my time.”
Know your worth OP, companies will burn you time and time if they think they can. Don’t learn the hard way like I did, or my grandfather did (he did a masters degree fully out of pocket because there was an increase in pay involved + a massive bonus, the removed the bonus and halved the increase in pay the year he graduated). It’s a well known scam used by employers in specialized fields to avoid having to actually pay for training and certs.
Additionally you may want to note that if they try to say that you need to cert to stay at the company, mention that in that case it’s mandatory training and you are supposed to be paid for time spent, and if they refuse look into an employment lawyer for wage theft.
Unless you are willing to tell your boss to fuck off and go find another job, I don’t think it’s in your interest to tell him that. Someone with the mindset to tell you to study on your own time isn’t going to take it very well.
Either say fuck the certification and promotions and don’t study, or just study on work time surreptitiously, or suck it up and study on your own time to get the certifications to make yourself more valuable to get a job somewhere else where they don’t have that sort of mindset.
In the end, if it’s a valuable cert, that cert belongs to OP and can be used for future jobs, so personal time investment is acceptable.
If the cert is a “company cert” and is only usable within that company, then that’s training for the job and should be provided on company time and dime.
I hate the idea of “personal” time. It doesn’t belong to my job by default. It’s all my personal time. If they want any of it they will need to pay.
FULLY AGREE.
I am lending my employer some of my personal time. Therefor if they want more, they need to pay for it. This ideology that you are owned by your company is shitty and needs to stop.
Generally they do and it’s expected after you’ve obtained the certification with a raise. This is ongoing payment and will most likely exceed the hourly wage invested to obtain the cert
Those promotion and raise promises are often not kept, so get them laid out in writing. If getting certified is part of your job then you should get paid for it in time and money.
I wish I had a better idea of industry norms. The company I originally worked at was willing to pay for udemy classes and similar and was known to put a couple of us up in important conferences where we could reap a lot of knowledge (and network.) Then we got bought and the new company doesn’t pay for shit. Has an education “stipend” to reimburse you for things you pay out of pocket towards education/training, but it has a yearly cap.
I can’t tell if I was privileged before the acquisition or just kind of fucked over afterwards.
Your time is your time. Work time or things related to work are work hours. I will die on that hill.
I’ve seen some good responses here, definitely take their advice.
Based on what you said, these are not required for you to do your job, only for you to improve your position. It is not unreasonable for you to use personal time for self-improvement. It’s also not unreasonable for you to use company downtime for self-improvement.
Not just downtime. There should be room for training.
Employers aren’t obligated to invest in you, but then you know how much you should invest in them.
1000% this. Spending even an entire work-day to go attend training is part of being in the work force. I’d be spending my personal time dusting off my resume.
You know you’re allowed to print off a new copy
I don’t recommend that, printers are expensive now.
But a printer requires money, which requires a job, which requires a resume, which requires a printer, which requires money, which requires a job, which requires a resume…
Had the same conversation with my boss, and I specifically asked him “Is this certificaton job related or is it just so someone can check a box on a spreadsheet somewhere? If it’s job related, I’m absolutely down for it, what does the new role entitle and what’s the increase in pay for it?”
Response? Silence.
What was the certification?
That was the weird part, it wasn’t any one specific certification, it was any 2nd certification in addition to the job related cert I already had.
Well idk, my certs have multiple levels/advancements that you can specialize in, so…
Continuous Professional Development (CPD) is a trait of professional careers. Do you think doctors, nurses, etc only study on work time?
If you’re not in such a professional field, discuss remuneration for doing it in your free time as the company will benefit. You need to figure out how much you want for a raise, and if things fall through remind them you’ll be more employable and you can go elsewhere after passing. Maybe even push for an early raise now to keep you as it seems they like you.
I don’t know about medical professionals, but Professional Engineers do, in fact, often get reimbursed by their company for the cost of earning their PDH credits.
If the company doesn’t pay me for a certification they want me to have, I will choose whatever certification/training to meet my requirements. If the cert is something I am interested, cool beans, otherwise the company can pound sand.
100%, I’ll work on it at home, but you’ll be paying me for my time…
“Using my own time for work stuff is unacceptable to me, and I am prepared to quit this job and get a different one that doesn’t ask me to work off the clock if you press this matter.”
Don’t try to reason them into accepting your way of thinking, just state your position and what you’re willing to do to pursue it
Incidentally, if “I am prepared to quit this job” does not currently apply to you, you should not be having this conversation.
“Using my own time for work stuff is unacceptable to me. It was not enumerated in the job listing when I was hired that off-clock unpaid work was required to keep this job and
I am prepared to quit this job and get a different one that doesn’t ask me to work off the clock if you press this matterif the company terminates me for refusing to work unpaid off the clock I’d be happy to raise that with the Department of Labor for a case of wage theft.”FTFY
Now, understand in many jobs maintaining a level of knowledge is necessary, and skills age-out meaning they are no longer applicable to industry. If you don’t have these new certs, you may not be able to get hired somewhere else because they require the current industry knowledge. You’ll have to decide which battles you want to fight, and what you will do if the worst outcome affects you and you’re out of work. Would you be forced to study and pass those certs anyway just to be eligible in your industry? If so, you can work toward compromise with your current employer as a shorter and less painful path.
To this end, you can challenge them on not letting you study on the clock during downtime. If these certs are as critical as they claim, then why are downtime hours not usable for cert study?
I get that you guys are spelling things out for OP so they have an understanding of what their argument’s foundation is, but going into the conversation with language like “it was not enumerated” and vague threats of reporting them to the authorities is probably not the best approach if OP actually wants to keep the job (which it sounds like they do).
My answer wasn’t so much directed at OP but @[email protected] that had text threatening to quit. If OPs company wants them gone, threatening to quit plays right into their hands. Further, if you ever threaten and not follow through, you’ve lost any leverage in negotiating further changes.
with language like “it was not enumerated” and vague threats of reporting them to the authorities
To reiterate, I wasn’t suggesting using that exact language I put in quotes but was attempting to show OP what was effectively being asked of them by their employer, and how it wasn’t fair to what they agreed, and that there was legal recourse they had if it evolved to that. If you read the rest of my post it was laying out that taking extreme action like threatening to quit, failing to get the certs, or some such would likely result in them losing their job anyway and a better approach is to work with their employer to get some time on the clock for cert study, but also recognize that an absolutist approach can result in the worst situation for OP and likely require they get the certs anyway on their own time because the certs would be required by a new employer.
Nothing with OPs situation will be resolved in a single conversation with any one party at their employer. It will be a series of conversations with each laying out their requirements and hopefully arriving at a compromise where OP still works there, and OP’s employer is satisfied with the effort toward certs.
There’s the magical term! God I fucking hate wage theft. OP, the company is trying to steal from you. Your time is money and if they’re not paying you for work then they’re, by definition, stealing from you.
I’ve had conversations like this before, and usually you only have to hint that it’s wage theft for dumbfuck managers to realize and back down, especially if you’re assertive but polite with them. If you’re not getting anywhere with the manager, then you should go to HR. HR’s job is to protect the company and the obviously correct move for an HR person is to keep the DoL out of the situation. If you go to HR and then get fired, then that may be even better evidence against the shitheads.
If you do go to HR, try to get your manager to admit to wage theft in a way that gives you evidence. If you can’t get the manager to admit to wage theft on paper or electronically (which you should immediately back up), you’re going to the DoL, and you live somewhere with one-party consent, then surreptitiously record your manager saying it. It may be against company policy to make this recording (and should be your last resort, don’t go to HR with audio recordings!), but it’s legal as long as your jurisdiction has one-party consent laws on the books.
Don’t let them steal from you, OP. The other magic words that have already been mentioned in this thread are “fuck you, pay me.”
Tell your boss that the time when you aren’t at work is the time when you do “the rest of my life.” Tell them that your schedule is already very full and that what free time you do have is for downtime for resting and recuperating from the things that keep you busy. Politely but firmly let them know that you need to pursue work during work time.
That’s a long way to say “I don’t know that I have availability on that schedule.”
That’s the line I used when it was suggested. My year clock started then, and I was out on time. They were surprised, but I included the email as part of my resignation.
You have the right to be compensated for time spent studying for work. And he has the right to fire you for using it so ineffectively that you continuously fail.
Sounds like they were already being paid and failing.
We get X hours per week work time and tests reimbursed after we pass. If we fail, it’s on us. None are required, but free education and testing is great. Read a chapter or two each day, get more involved, won’t kill you. Hell, might even help land you a better job.
Its your education and your career youre cheating. OP needs to eradicate from him/herself their childish folley.
Note that my certifications are globally recognized (Microsoft 365, cloud management, etc) not internal bullshit.
“My other commitments don’t leave time for studying enough to pass this certification test.”
When they ask what the other commitments are:
“It’s personal, and I’m not comfortable talking about it.”
