So where are the intersex toilets?
Not sure what that is, but the place I’m going to later today has a common toilet for both sexes. Sinks and bins are common, then there are lockable booths. Works well enough, at least for me as a CIS man.
How do they plan on enforcing this?
How about we have ungendered washrooms and everyone uses the same one?
Yeah, just have it all be stalls.
Why? That’s a downgrade
Stupidest take Ive seen in a long time. People apparently dont think for a second before upvoting.
Forcing trans people to use restrooms they arent comfortable with is a problem but this is most definitely not a valid solution.Let’s be real, the bathroom itself by the problem. No one is uncomfortable with the physical facilities. So, forcing trans women to use a bathroom with people they aren’t comfortable sharing a bathroom with is bad but forcing cis women to share a bathroom with people they aren’t comfortable sharing a bathroom with is totally ok, right? If the single, ungendered bathroom isn’t the most equal solution then this whole issue isn’t about equality.
EDIT: To be clear, before the extremists inevitably pile on, I am very much for equality and trans right and have been since before most of the current cabal of extremists were born. As a cis man I don’t care who I’m peeing next to but I can understande why a cis woman might have reservations about sharing a bathroom with someone who has as penis.
So your solution to a problem affecting a small minority is to use huge amounts of tax money to extend the problem to everyone, fixing it for none?
What precisely is your interpretation of Falkner’s assertion that trans people should lobby for a “third place”?
Its using huge amounts of tax money not solving a problem, but at least it wouldnt create one for millions of people.
Labeling me a troll will NOT silence me. If you’re not here to have a good faith discussion, leave.
How does gender neutral washrooms not solve the problem?
I misinterpreted parts of your comment and already edited it before you finished yours.
Nevertheless, Im a little confused about your stance. You literally wrote in your comment that it would make women uncomfortable by forcing them to share restrooms with men. It would solve the problem for (some, definitely not most) trans women and create the same problem for 100 times the number of cis women.
In my comment, the problem is actually the physical spaces themselves. Many washrooms, especially those in North America and most especially in the US, provide very little privacy or safety.
The washrooms would need to be redesigned so that the entrances had no doors, so that the sink area was very open, and so that the toilets were located in enclosed, private stalls. Urinals would have to be located out of sight in a separate area, perhaps around a corner.
The issue now is that washrooms are poorly designed and women don’t want to be in a washroom with men. Forcing a small number of trans women to use a washroom with men is no different than forcing cis women to share a washroom with biological men. We need a solution that takes those issues away and well designed gender neutral washrooms are the solution. No one can be excluded.
I suppose it’ll require some modification of the current toilets. And they aren’t few(toilets, I mean). Overall, the “problem” is hugely exaggerated. A toilet is a toilet.
Can anyone cite a single instance of it being problematic when a trans woman used the women’s toilet or a trans man used the men’s? Has this ever actually caused trouble? Because it seems the UK Government is bending over backwards to appease bigots over entirely imaginary, and probably not even genuine, fears.
And can these politicians not see how it will be problematic for very feminine trans women to be using men’s toilets and very masculine trans men to be using the women’s? Will anyone feel more comfortable that way?
I looked it up on a quick online search, the only actual problems I found were trans women being harassed (in at least one case, even police was called on her), often by men.
Sometimes it’s been butch cis women being accused of “being a man”.
Hate and bigotry really break people’s minds, it’s sad to see.
Has this ever actually caused trouble?
Technical trouble? Of course not. But socially – all the time. Most people, for some reason, think that the toilet sex division is important. Try to enter the wrong door and you’ll see it by yourself. While men mostly don’t mind if a woman runs in man toilet, women can be really angry at men running into theirs.
Why? I don’t know.
Once, our classroom (early teens) had to get changed in a large, shared changing area for a swimming pool. One of those clingy volunteering mothers walked around, pointing out where we didn’t dry wel enough, touching, “helping” boys etc. But, she had two boys of her own and “there was nothing she hadn’t seen before”. Very uncomfortable.
Somehow I don’t think it would be accepted for me to walk into little girls changing saying “don’t worry, it’s nothing I haven’t seen before”.
Same for those cleaning ladies cleaning right behind me while taking a piss in a urinal. It feels weird.
Oh well, we’re just men, right? So who cares?
While men mostly don’t mind if a woman runs in man toilet, women can be really angry at men running into theirs.
If that were the rationale, it would make no sense to rule that trans women must use the men’s toilet and trans men must use the women’s. That’s a recipe for exactly the discomfort you describe.
Dingdingding, this is exactly why this shit is transphobic.
There have been instances of serial child predators claiming to be trans as a defense when caught exposing themselves to kids in women’s locker rooms and such, but laws never stopped rapists, so it’s irrelevant.
Fox News likes to frame it as liberals giving them permission to do so, though.
Yes, the response to a child predator who says “But I’m trans!” should be “So what?” It’s irrelevant to the matter of trans rights, as you say.
Why would it require modifications to toilets? Except for pissoirs toilets are not gendered. And IMHO, pissoirs should be vanished anyway, they’re disgusting. But technically, all genders can use any restroom (I haven’t seen any pissoir-only restroom yet).
In a museum near me you had two doors:
men <–> womenfor a few years they replaced the signs
3x U + 1x T <–> 3x TWhere U is an icon for urinals and T is an icon for a regular toilet. Everybody understand this. But then again, art museums attract more progressive people than conservative people so I can imagine if they did this in a school for example it’d be different.
on a tangent: I always feel like crap when the stalls are occupied and the last resort is taking the disgusting pissoir.
Pissoirs are great because of the huge through put, women/girls should be taught to use FUDs to use them too.
Why exactly are wall potties disgusting? If anything it helps prevent lazy douchebags from pissing all over the toilet seats.
Well, first, no toilet paper. Nobody wipes their wiener, so everyone stains their undies, and I personally find urine stained undies disgusting.
But also, splashing a liquid with an adequate amount of pressure against a hard surface will result in backsplashes. Not a lot of pressure is needed though, so more urine stains everywhere. That effect is drastically reduced when sitting down on a toilet.Um, that’s why guys shake it a bit before stowing it, hence the “if you shake it more than three times you’re playing with it.” I can honestly say I don’t dribble all over my undies cause I make sure it’s empty, kinda like a fuel pump nozzle. And any guy with half a brainstem has figured out how to find the right angle to not back spray themselves (hint: most urinal manufacturers put a small graphic low in the bowl as a kind of target to minimize back spray, knowing guys like to aim their stream at things).
Good luck getting guys to sit on the toilet to pee. Aside from it being a faux pas for whatever stupid reason, it’s generally a waste of time when we can walk up to either a urinal or toilet, unzip and whiz, zip up, wash, and go. Most guys have managed to make it an efficient and clean process for a very long time and that isn’t going to change anytime soon. Sorry, but this is pretty silly.
that’s why guys shake it a bit before stowing it
That’s not enough. In german, there’s a saying: "Es hilft kein Schütteln und kein Tropfen, in die Hose geht der letzte Tropfen.“ Meaning “It doesn’t help to shake or knock, the pants will catch the final drop”.
And any guy with half a brainstem has figured out how to find the right angle to not back spray themselves
I’ve seen enough public restrooms to know that it’s not enough guys.
Good luck getting guys to sit on the toilet to pee.
That’s easy. Stop telling young boys it’s “unmanly” to sit down.
I find urinals to be disgusting, and your excuses won’t change that.
All the anti-perspirant in the world won’t prevent some amount of sweat getting into someone’s shirt, is there really that much of a difference for an article of clothing worn for a day at most?
Like, do you think everyone with a penis should wipe their tip after every piss?
As a man I don’t give a shit who is peeing beside me but I understand that women do. A single bathroom with lots of floor to celling stalls with no huge American puritanical anti-privacy gaps and a separate area out of view for urinals would solve the problem. Sit down, stand up, whatever floats your boat. Keep your genitals out of view, wash your hands, and the problem is solved.
Historically the women got their own room because when nobody else is in that shared space it can be used like a dark alley or some bushes etc. I’m all for ungendered toilets but women’s safety is a serious concern, especially in places like clubs. The biggots usually don’t for keeping women safe, but their argument is valid.
Yes, that’s the problem. It isn’t the trans women who are often more abused that cis women. The problem is the “alpha male” incel assholes.
And they are not only the problem in this situation. The fact they are barely mentioned in the discussion about toilets says a lot about what actually matters to the people making a fuss about the safety of (trans)woman in public bathrooms.
A little bit of investment to make society more humane. Seems worth it.
I’ve often wondered this very thing. Minus Urinals (which, do we really need them?), a toilet is pretty standard, they’re all in individual closets with doors, and no one is swinging their tits or cock around outside the stall…
That said I’m not sure what they’re thinking here anyway… they want a biological male, but post-op trans woman on HRT hanging out in the men’s room. How’s that gonna work out any different than just having ungendered rooms in the first place? What is even the goal besides “shaming” the trans person? How does that help ANYONE? They’re not going to stop being trans because of it. And who is going to check or care?
As a dude in a bathroom stall, I don’t care who’s shitting next to me as long as the door is closed and they clean up after themselves.
The funny part is these idiots seem to always forget that trans men exist too.
They would literally force men into women’s restrooms without knowing it.Urinals use less water and are much faster if you just have to pee. That’s why there are always long lines at the washroom without them.
You could still put them in a stall though.
I’m all for, but to be honest they’ll look for another way to harass the scapegoat. Or they find a new scapegoat, which would be great for transpeople but doesn’t really change much in the bigger picture.
It’s already going this way in the UK, it’s actually part of what the government’s proposed as a solution. If you go to a building built within the last 10 years they mostly just have unisex cubicles.
I would pay money to see the reaction of these people watching a trans man like Buck Angel entering a women’s Restroom.
If these bigots talk about trans people, they always think about a twinky looking guy dressing as a girl, going into a woman’s restroom. But they never think about literal bearded dude guys being forced to go to a woman’s restrooms. Which obviously just ahows how dumb they are, but also just how flawed these arguments are.
oh damn is he sexy or what :O
Always a matter of taste, but IMHO yes
But more importantly, he looks like the manliest man who ever maned by every m
anetric these bigots use.It seems to me, that the bigots only ever have problems with trans women but not trans men, so they probably wouldn’t even realise that Buck Angel is transmasc.
Nah, if course not. That’s because transphobia is deeply connected to misogyny. Trans men are rarely an issue (though trans men often are invisible, which is another issue), I doubt bigots are widely aware of them.
Biology does not support this viewpoint. We should stop calling it “biological sex” and just call it bigotry.
May be an ignorant question but How does biology Not Support This viewpoint?
Sex is not binary. There are at least 30 genetic combinations of genes responsible for primary sex organs naturally occurring in human biology, and the presentation of secondary sexual characteristics runs a full spectrum of different phenotypes.
Further, the neurological and social processes of transgender identification are biological processes.
Gender is a social construct that describes the majority phenotypes, but there are far more outliers than the bigots would have you believe, and the science backs that up at every level.
“Biological sex” is LGBTQA++plus something we haven’t even discovered yet. And there’s no evidence of bathroom incidents involving trans individuals where they weren’t the victims.
Also, your question reminded me of something my biology professor would say: “Ignorance is not asking the question.” Good job being curious.
Bigots should use their brain for once, humanity says.
I always want to downvote transphobic bullshit, but this matters so here is an upvote and a comment for engagement.
So much for the view that trans people would not be impacted by this ruling, it was a clarification and they were covered elsewhere in the law
Says who?
Philipson, it’s right there in the headline.
Who?
Removed by mod
Why? Ok, I get the sports thing depending on the sport, the transition, the training etc etc…
But what, in your view, is the problem with someone who is trans utilising the bathroom, or the change rooms? What do you think will happen?
