If people were as serious about it as they pretend to be, we would be talking about nationalizing those defense industries.
You know who the biggest shareholders of Rheinmetall are? US American investment fonds linked to fascists. And the original founders of all these German companies? Yeah, litteral Nazis.
They are of course happy to sell to both sides. They always do.
Even during the World Wars the defence industry wasn’t wholly nationalised.
37% of Rheinmetall’s shares are owned by NA investors, none individually control more than 6%. And no, Rheinmetall wasn’t founded by Nazis. It predates the Nazis by decades, the company was founded in the same year Hitler was born in. And even if it was, why would that matter today? The company is not owned by the people who founded it. It’s not even owned by their descendants (who still would not be the same people).
They are also NOT selling to both sides. I’m not even disputing that they wouldn’t, they might well want to, but they literally can’t. They’re not allowed to and that is enforced.
Ah, because Nazis in Germany magically appeared with Hitlers birth and all magically disappeared when he committed suicide? 🙄
As I already said elsewhere, Rheinmetall itself might not sell, but the profits go to people that can invest them into other businesses that can sell and/or otherwise support fascists regimes around the world.
Rheinmetall was founded in 1889. The NSDAP was founded after the 1st world war. There’s literally no way Nazis founded Rheinmetall because it predates Nazism by about thirty years.
I wasn’t only talking about Rheinmetall, and while the Rheinmetall founder died in 1923, the company went on to be a major part in the Nazi war production.
It’s lemmy.world, people here are mostly liberals, agreeing with you on anything that goes against the system would make their world collapse. I’m happy downvotes don’t mean shit on Lemmy though, because imo you’re right and it’s pretty fucked up how we‘re all being manipulated into hooraying for more war, more arms, more destruction just to make some oligarchs even richer.
For the record, I have no idea when what German arms company got founded but I think that’s nitpicking compared to the fact that fascists will make profit from our governments buying more weapons from these defense companies.
Ok, but what is your proposed solution to the current problem? Problem being: aggressive Russia, and isolationist USA (and possibly aggressive in the future).
Start the nationalization process and if someone attacks, we will shout “give me 10 more years, I’m almost done restructuring”?
How is the ownership structure of an already existing company relevant to it’s capability to produce the outputs necessary? If anything they will be more able to produce the needed things if a large part of the money isn’t siphoned off to US American investment fonds.
On what grounds? Are you suggesting a soviet style government takeover of existing business? If you would like to do it in the “civilized way” you would have to buy that business and while it might be profitable in a very long run it would cost you much more right now (and state owned companies tend to get less efficient).
The German constitution allows this kind of nationalization in times of crisis.
My suggestion would be to refund these speculators the (inflation adjusted) pre-war value of the stock. That’s currently less than a tenth of the current stock price, to give you an idea how much they have already profitted.
And it is a bit funny to argue state owned companies are less efficient and the same time fear-monger about the Russian war economy that is now fully state controlled. But yes, in times of peace when companies can freely chose what to produce, non-state owned companies tend to be more efficient.
The founders argument is misleading, though I find no fault in the rest of your sentiment. Still, the perfect is the enemy of the good. If they issue Eurobonds I’m buying them whether it’s going to deepen liberalist hold over the west or not, and the one thing I think we can count on is that they won’t sell to Russia or the United States.
Some of these companies are still family owned, but yes I consider the other point to be more important. There are loads of war profiteers, and while Rheinmetall itself is unlikely to sell weapons to Russia or the US, I assume their owners have little reason not to and also own other companies that will.
So do you propose you and I start an arms cooperative this afternoon? I don’t exactly disapprove, it’s what I might have done in the 50s, yet we’re out of time.
No, I am saying if people truely believed that we are in a situation of existential risk, then the German government would be talking about nationalizing existing companies like Rheinmetall.
That they are not talking about that at all, tells us a lot about their true motivations.
I agree with that being the better idea, in the governments’… limited defence I think it’s more a lack of comprehending the urgency than profiteering. I hope so at least.
Mate what.
It’s not like the state is oblivious to ownership.
If a person own a company in another country that sells armaments to an enemy country, the stat would smack down on that so hard.
Dude that’s not a conspiracy, that’s just capitalism. E.g. NBC is owned by General Electric, one of the largest American defense contractors. So obviously NBC has a conflict of interest if they’re critical of warmongering.
The same goes kind of for every bigger news outlet, if you look at their ownership structures they’re all owned by oligarchs and their main interest is in protecting capital, not being ethical and uphold journalistic standards or criticize how the government acts if it protects the interests of the ultra rich.
The shareholders of public companies are, well, public information and it’s kind of hard to find a large company that’s not partly owned by Blackrock, Vanguard and the likes. Now, if you dig deep enough into their portfolio, e.g. through their emerging markets funds I would not be surprised if they have some shares in Chinese defense companies, unless they’re sanctioned and even then you can probably still invest if you set up some shell company that isn’t sanctioned.
And the government will obviously not go against Blackrock, Vanguard, etc. because they have so much influence on public opinion that the government would be history pretty quickly. Oh yeah, the (most likely) new chancellor of Germany is ex-Blackrock, think he’ll care?
If people were as serious about it as they pretend to be, we would be talking about nationalizing those defense industries.
You know who the biggest shareholders of Rheinmetall are? US American investment fonds linked to fascists. And the original founders of all these German companies? Yeah, litteral Nazis.
They are of course happy to sell to both sides. They always do.
Even during the World Wars the defence industry wasn’t wholly nationalised.
37% of Rheinmetall’s shares are owned by NA investors, none individually control more than 6%. And no, Rheinmetall wasn’t founded by Nazis. It predates the Nazis by decades, the company was founded in the same year Hitler was born in. And even if it was, why would that matter today? The company is not owned by the people who founded it. It’s not even owned by their descendants (who still would not be the same people).
They are also NOT selling to both sides. I’m not even disputing that they wouldn’t, they might well want to, but they literally can’t. They’re not allowed to and that is enforced.
Ah, because Nazis in Germany magically appeared with Hitlers birth and all magically disappeared when he committed suicide? 🙄
As I already said elsewhere, Rheinmetall itself might not sell, but the profits go to people that can invest them into other businesses that can sell and/or otherwise support fascists regimes around the world.
Rheinmetall was founded in 1889. The NSDAP was founded after the 1st world war. There’s literally no way Nazis founded Rheinmetall because it predates Nazism by about thirty years.
I wasn’t only talking about Rheinmetall, and while the Rheinmetall founder died in 1923, the company went on to be a major part in the Nazi war production.
Can’t wait to see how you move the goal posts next!
People really need to learn how to read here. It is astonishing 😱
It’s lemmy.world, people here are mostly liberals, agreeing with you on anything that goes against the system would make their world collapse. I’m happy downvotes don’t mean shit on Lemmy though, because imo you’re right and it’s pretty fucked up how we‘re all being manipulated into hooraying for more war, more arms, more destruction just to make some oligarchs even richer.
For the record, I have no idea when what German arms company got founded but I think that’s nitpicking compared to the fact that fascists will make profit from our governments buying more weapons from these defense companies.
Ok, but what is your proposed solution to the current problem? Problem being: aggressive Russia, and isolationist USA (and possibly aggressive in the future).
Start the nationalization process and if someone attacks, we will shout “give me 10 more years, I’m almost done restructuring”?
How is the ownership structure of an already existing company relevant to it’s capability to produce the outputs necessary? If anything they will be more able to produce the needed things if a large part of the money isn’t siphoned off to US American investment fonds.
On what grounds? Are you suggesting a soviet style government takeover of existing business? If you would like to do it in the “civilized way” you would have to buy that business and while it might be profitable in a very long run it would cost you much more right now (and state owned companies tend to get less efficient).
The German constitution allows this kind of nationalization in times of crisis.
My suggestion would be to refund these speculators the (inflation adjusted) pre-war value of the stock. That’s currently less than a tenth of the current stock price, to give you an idea how much they have already profitted.
And it is a bit funny to argue state owned companies are less efficient and the same time fear-monger about the Russian war economy that is now fully state controlled. But yes, in times of peace when companies can freely chose what to produce, non-state owned companies tend to be more efficient.
Russia has allocated 25% of its current (2025) budget to military spending.
The founders argument is misleading, though I find no fault in the rest of your sentiment. Still, the perfect is the enemy of the good. If they issue Eurobonds I’m buying them whether it’s going to deepen liberalist hold over the west or not, and the one thing I think we can count on is that they won’t sell to Russia or the United States.
Some of these companies are still family owned, but yes I consider the other point to be more important. There are loads of war profiteers, and while Rheinmetall itself is unlikely to sell weapons to Russia or the US, I assume their owners have little reason not to and also own other companies that will.
So do you propose you and I start an arms cooperative this afternoon? I don’t exactly disapprove, it’s what I might have done in the 50s, yet we’re out of time.
No, I am saying if people truely believed that we are in a situation of existential risk, then the German government would be talking about nationalizing existing companies like Rheinmetall.
That they are not talking about that at all, tells us a lot about their true motivations.
I agree with that being the better idea, in the governments’… limited defence I think it’s more a lack of comprehending the urgency than profiteering. I hope so at least.
I’m fairly certain any company deciding to supply arms to both their country and its enemy would immediately be charged with treason
Sure for individual companies, but what about their owners?
Bet most governments would question where the owner got the bazooka from if it’s not coming from the company
It’s coming from another company that owner owns. We are talking about huge multinational investment fonds here.
Mate what. It’s not like the state is oblivious to ownership. If a person own a company in another country that sells armaments to an enemy country, the stat would smack down on that so hard.
Dude that’s not a conspiracy, that’s just capitalism. E.g. NBC is owned by General Electric, one of the largest American defense contractors. So obviously NBC has a conflict of interest if they’re critical of warmongering.
The same goes kind of for every bigger news outlet, if you look at their ownership structures they’re all owned by oligarchs and their main interest is in protecting capital, not being ethical and uphold journalistic standards or criticize how the government acts if it protects the interests of the ultra rich.
The shareholders of public companies are, well, public information and it’s kind of hard to find a large company that’s not partly owned by Blackrock, Vanguard and the likes. Now, if you dig deep enough into their portfolio, e.g. through their emerging markets funds I would not be surprised if they have some shares in Chinese defense companies, unless they’re sanctioned and even then you can probably still invest if you set up some shell company that isn’t sanctioned.
And the government will obviously not go against Blackrock, Vanguard, etc. because they have so much influence on public opinion that the government would be history pretty quickly. Oh yeah, the (most likely) new chancellor of Germany is ex-Blackrock, think he’ll care?
On an US American investment fund? How exactly do you think the German government is going to “smack down” on that?