Is it any service that includes the ability to federate? If so, are Matrix/XMPP/other non-ActivityPub services part of the Fediverse, or does Fediverse really just mean ActivityPub?
The context is wanting to promote a Matrix chat room on discuss.online: #online.discuss:discuss.online (see post). Does it belong in Lemmy communities like this one, [email protected], etc? Or does it not count as part of the Fediverse?
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The fediverse originally had nothing to do with ActivityPub. Diaspora and ostatus were, and still are a part of it.
Although, the term seems to typically fixate on social networking.
So … not the combined works (verses) of the famous poet Fedy?
I’ve been following this scene for many years, back when diaspora and friendica had a reasonable shot at promoting their own protocols rather than (what would become) ActivityPub — XMPP was still on the table as a possible avenue, as well.
There were lots of projects and developers pulling towards a general, shared goal — decentralisation — but with different code bases (ah, and did they want a distributed network or a federated one? Semantics like that ate almost as much time as agreeing on shared protocols). It was by no means a given that StatusNet would evolve via PumpIO into ActivityPub.
All I’m saying is, yes, ActivityPub is definitely the de facto protocol by now, but rather than look at this from a technology POV, I think it is worth taking a broader perspective of utility.
The Fediverse is, by that definition, a network of federated and interoperable server instances. As is pointed out, Matrix and XMPP are federated protocols, just not federating with the larger AP network. Heck, even Signal used to federate before Whisper closed its server off.
Federated chat is pretty much e2e-encrypted by default — I don’t know that that has been successfully implemented in AP yet. In that regard, the fediverse is more fragmented than it needs to be.
Defining the fediverse around ActivityPub rather than the broader goal of federation and interoperability, we may lose sight of projects that are developed outside of the W3C, and might be the future of the fediverse.
Matrix and XMPP are federated but not part of the Fediverse, which revolves around ActivityPub. While they share the principle of decentralization, the Fediverse specifically connects platforms like Mastodon or Lemmy via ActivityPub. Promoting a Matrix room in Lemmy communities might align with shared values but doesn’t make Matrix part of the Fediverse. Bridging these ecosystems is possible but not inherent.
So, the term Fediverse basically refers to the ActivityPub protocol and the associated server software. Technically, it’s not just ActivityPub, but also the AT protocol and nostr. Another layer to the Fediverse, at least in my mind, is having some federation. Meaning Bluesky isn’t apart of the Fediverse, even though it’s built on the AT Protocol, because of it’s isolation. Since there’s no interaction with Lemmy, Mastodon, PixelFed, or other federated social networks, it’s not part of the Fediverse.
I think that ATP and nostr are sometimes included as part of the Fediverse because they both have bridges that allow connection. Without the bridges they’re isolated.
XMPP also has a working ActivityPub bridge. But I think at some point these bridges are a bridge too far.
Software like Friendica or Hubzilla that can speak multiple protocols including AP are clearly part of the Fediverse, but things that need 3rd party bridges IMHO are not, as the creators clearly do no intend them to be part of it. Otherwise Xhitter would be also part of the Fediverse as bridges exist(ed in the past at least).
Wasn’t the Twitter “bridge” just bot accounts though? It’s a bit different with Bluesky because they’ve said that they completely support bridges between AT and AP but just don’t have the resources to work on them themselves. Anyway, ActivityPub co-author Evan Prodromou gave an interview yesterday where he included Bluesky as part of the Fediverse because of the bridge.
Personally, I consider them to be both part of and not part of the Fediverse, I guess. I wouldn’t send someone there and I also kind of think they’re a bunch of dicks for re-inventing the wheel instead of contributing improvements here.
ATP still requires millions to host a relay https://www.theverge.com/2025/1/13/24342799/free-our-feeds-social-media-ecosystem-at-protocol-bluesky
This isn’t the same thing.
Bluesky has something called fedibridge (third party), where your entire account is forwarded to mastodon and acts like a native mastodon account when viewed from mastodon. (It works the other way around too, mastodon accounts can be viewable on bluesky thanks to it).
A relay is something that hosts the viewable content on the ATprotocol. Currently, the only relay that encompasses the entire AT protocol is hosted by bluesky PBC, though there are a few very small relays for specific niches.
Thanks for sharing the article though, I had not heard of free our feeds.
Are you talking about bridgy fed?
I was mostly referring to the fact that the day Bluesky decides to ban bridges, ATProto won’t be part the Fediverse as per the definition of the comment above.
I personally prefer to just consider them as out from the start.
It seems like you’d say that Matrix isn’t included? It’s not ActivityPub/AT/nostr
Matrix is not federated, it has nothing to do with the whole ActivityThing. They are two separate universes. Maybe there are bridges that I don’t know of, but essentially they are not interconnected.
It’s federated, just not to the ActivityPub universe, right? People have been able to join rooms on discuss.online using their matrix.org accounts, which to me counts as federated.
Matrix servers can talk to each other, so yes, they are federated. But Matrix is not ActivityPub.
Its a series of tubes
I think by now pretty much everyone here heard about Matrix at some point or another.
Personally I think Matrix and XMPP belong go the Fediverse in the loose sense. ActivityPub isn’t designed for messaging, and they offer good protocols for that.
If anyone asks me this, I’m going to tell them I don’t know but I’m figuring it out as I go along.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse:
The majority of Fediverse platforms are based on free and open-source software, and create connections between servers using the ActivityPub protocol. Some software still supports older federation protocols as well, such as OStatus, the Diaspora protocol and Zot. Diaspora* is the only actively developed software project classified under the original definition of Fediverse that does not support ActivityPub.[5][6]
You would have to look at those citations to see how authoritative they are. This may also still be open to interpretation?
