cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/24943429
Human ancestors like Australopithecus – which lived around 3.5 million years ago in southern Africa – ate very little to no meat, according to new research published in the scientific journal Science. This conclusion comes from an analysis of nitrogen isotope isotopes in the fossilized tooth enamel of seven Australopithecus individuals. The data revealed that these early hominins primarily relied on plant-based diets, with little to no evidence of meat consumption.
May I see these RCTs please? What do you consider a CVD biomarker? Not LDL hopefully. CAC scores, insulin resistance, or all cause mortality please.
I do not agree with this, a abundance of weak observational studies do not make causation. But the point of this discussion isn’t to get us to agree, just to indicate that people well versed in the literature and looking at the evidence strength would not agree that the evidence is overwhelming… which is to say there has not been a casual link established.
The study Meta-Analysis of Randomized Controlled Trials of Red Meat Consumption in Comparison With Various Comparison Diets on Cardiovascular Risk Factors analyzed 6 RCT’s that compared red meat to plant-based protein sources and finds that the plant-based protein sources consistently result in better blood lipids and lipoproteins compared with red meat:
As to your comments about CVD markers, there are of course contrarians, but the evidence linking both LDL-C and apoB with CVD risk is strong. Look at mendelian randomization studies for both.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12916-020-01792-7
https://www.neurology.org/doi/full/10.1212/WNL.0000000000007091
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.1003062
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2814089
Substitution of animal with plant protein lowers apo-B https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/JAHA.117.006659
In comparison with control diets, plant-based diets improved Homeostatic Model Assessment for Insulin Resistance https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/16/13/2110
All cause mortality was reduced by plant-based diet in the meta-analyses of prospective cohort studies I shared earlier, nobody tries to measure that for dietary RCT’s…
Low carb diets high in animal products result in increased CAC scores and the animal-based but not plant-based LCD score is significantly associated with a higher risk of CAC progression (animal-based LCD score: hazard ratio, 1.456 [95% CI, 1.015–2.089]; P=0.041; plant-based LCD score: hazard ratio, 1.016 [95% CI, 0.821–1.257]; P=0.884 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/ATVBAHA.120.314838 (observational)
Thats a interesting paper, unfortunately the endpoints they used where lipoproteins and not all cause mortality. LDL is not the villain it has been made out to be. https://hackertalks.com/post/6054186
I agree if you want to lower your LDL PBF and Seed oils are a great way to do it. I don’t agree that lowering your LDL as the only goal is healthy.
Yes! Reducing sugar and carbs is great for metabolic health. Totally agreed
Right, Observational and FFQs.
In this study Low Carbohydrate group was defined as 43% carbs, or 161 Carbs per day. Which is well above a ketogenic metabolism, so does not apply to LCHF/Keto or Carnivore.
Thanks for all the links and papers, its a little overwhelming when you throw so many at once. One paper at a time will make discussion easier. I’ve look at the data and I’m still comfortable with my choices, and stand behind my statements that ASF is being incorrectly vilified.
You’re setting up impossible criteria for what studies you will accept as evidence against your position by saying you will only accept RCT’s with all-cause mortality as the end point as evidence. Like I said, nobody does this for studying diet…
You seem to have a double standard for what qualifies as sufficient evidence against your view vs. for your view, as evidenced by the fact you think that the context of a keto or carnivore diet would completely reverse clearly evident trends despite a complete lack of evidence. Where are your RCT’s with all-cause mortality as an end point studying the keto diet? Where are your RCT’s showing that increasing LDL-C and apo-B does not increase CVD risk over lifespan-scale experiments?
You conveniently chose to ignore the Mendelian randomization studies on LDL-C and apo-B.
Your view on ldl-c and apo-b goes against expert consensus (https://www.lipidjournal.com/article/S1933-2874(24)00240-X/fulltext, https://www.jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2022.07.006, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28444290/), there is very compelling evidence that both, especially apo-b, have a causal role in long-term CVD progression.
While the conversation has been interesting, I feel that continued exchange will not be particularly productive.