It seems that there are a lot of Israelis that believe that there are no innocents in Gaza. And one could argue that it’s possible that a significant majority of the population is hateful towards Israelis, considering the history.
If you agree with this argument, can you please explain why and elaborate? And if you don’t, how would you refute it? There is no data that shows that there isn’t a significant majority that’s hateful towards the Israelis.
DISCLAIMER: I’m not stating my opinion as I want to hear an unbiased opinion from you.
That’s what you say to justify genocide. There are children there.
nobody thinks a whole group of civilians deserve to be killed off that isn’t a complete dumbass
You know that a disturbing amount of people actually do right?
If there are no innocent ones, how can anyone be a judge of someone else
Let the sinless one throw the first stove
There’s plenty of examples of people of both nationalities living, working, cooperating, or interacting together.
“They’re all guilty” is bullshit.
They are brainwashed supporters of genocide. I read about a guy who left to get his 2 newborn twins registered at the hospital and they got killed along with his wife while he was away.
“No innocents.”? Fuck you. I wouldn’t wish this misery on my absolute most hated enemy.
Wish I could find the quote from whatever Israeli minister about “hamas babies.”
A core principle of modern (western) legal states is that it’s preferable to let 10 guilty people walk free before wrongfully punishing one innocent. I’m aware that we often don’t manage to live up to that, but it is the ideal.
That’s why guilt of the individual (!) has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, it’s why certain evidence may become inadmissible if it’s been acquired illegally, it’s why suspect’s may walk free due to formal errors. We try to make absolutely sure that cutting corners doesn’t lead to wrong conclusions, even if it means that we sometimes have to let criminals go unpunished.
Following that same principle, “it’s possible that there’s a significant majority” isn’t enough. Where’s the proof that there’s not a single inhabitant of Gaza who doesn’t support Hamas?
Also, since when is it a crime punishable by lifelong imprisonment or death to be hateful of someone?
And if you and your entire people were held in an open air prison for as long as you could think back, would you not grow hateful of your jailers?
Last but not least: The logic that “there are no innocents [on the other side of the fence]” applied by Hamas towards the Israelis led to October 7th. If it was flawed then, how is it not flawed now?
Insofar that you add “innocent of absolutely anything and everything that anyone could ever morally doubt, on a philosophical lebel”, definitely no.
Innocent as in not responsible for the crimes of others? Yeah, obviously. Depends though but vastly yes.
That is usually how a genocide is justified to the public. Every member of the ‘undesireabe’ group is guilty of being an undesirable, and can thus be justifyably murdered.
Examples:
All Jewish people are guilty of some conspiracy and/or killing Jesus
All Muslim people are guilty of replacing white christians and/or terrorism
All LGBTQ people are guilty of grooming kids
All Palestinians are guilty of ‘occupying’ Israeli land.
etc.
Every example of this is a tool of propaganda to get the public to go along with unfair treatment up to and including genocide. The fact that they’re all easily refuted doesn’t matter. It goes hand in hand with the view that the group aren’t fully people.
This reasoning is never ok, no matter what group of people it’s used against this time. When you recognize it, call it out for the sham it is.
Those who say there are innocent seem to lack empathy.
What is a child guilty of in the conflict? There are always non combatants who are stuck in this wanting no part on either side.
According to sarah silverman theyll grow up to hate israel so they gotta go (I dont like how she kinda got away from being cancelled because she was already irrelevent and shut off her comments for a year to avoid backlash) Midly salty I was her fan and thought she was a woke comedian because she told mfs to vote once.
no, because you cannot hold one person accountable for the actions of a different person unless they directly enabled it.
Ask those people if there are any innocents in Israel. All of that society contributed to a genocide. We could ask the same thingabout the US. I didn’t get thrown in jail from repeated protesting, so I’m just as much to blame.
Palestinians have every right and plenty of reasons to hate Israelis as far as I am concerned
Its like with Nazi germany. Sure not literally ALL germans supported hitler but they also just didnt do enough to stop him. When your children are killed by people with israeli flags, its hard not to hate the whole country.
That doesnt make them guilty of anything other than hatred however. The amount of people in gaza actively involved in killing israeli civilians is close to zero. Killing soldiers occupying your land is not great but arguably not morally bad.
There were literally thousands of Hamas fighters who entered Israel by land, sea, and air on Oct 7, 2023. They captured and held territory, killed 1200 people, kidnapped hundreds more, and committed war crimes. Hamas claims that they have/had 10s of thousands more fighters. The scale of these numbers is undisputed.
How is that “close to zero?”
They killed ~800 civilians according to Israel, but Israel has refused any independent investigation into these numbers and their causes of death. Likely the number was much lower and a lot were killed by Israel fire in the confusion or under hannibal directive.
The number of Hamas fighters that actually had civilian blood on their hands was at the time of the attack surely not in the thousands, because how can multiple people kill a single person.
After 16 months of bombing, arrests and starvation the number of hamas fighters alive that have actually killed any Israeli civilians is bound to have dwindled to a fraction of the initial number. All that is left are military forces engaged in war with other military forces.
All the while tens of thousands probably more than 100k univolved gazans have been killed by bombing, gunfire or starvation.
In terms of hatred im sure most gazans would be happy if Israel crumbled, but people are to be judged for actions not thoughts.
A whole different topic of discussion is whether settlers occupying and partying on internationally disputed territory should be considered civilians.
A whole different topic of discussion is whether settlers occupying and partying on internationally disputed territory should be considered civilians.
That answers your opinion the “no innocent Israelis” question.
Thousands compared to a population of over a million is very negligible. Even if every single one of them actively targeted civilians. ‘A negligibly small percentage’ is sometimes colloquially referred to as ‘practically zero’.
It’s about 1.4%
Israel lists about 160000 active duty IDF. That’s about 1.6% - practically zero according to you?
USA active duty is about 0.6%
It’s not like they came out of nowhere. If they were framed as the Rebellion in a dystopian movie, everybody would be cheering for them. Probably asking why the other 98.6% of the population aren’t participating.
I don’t care if someone says that there are no innocent Israelis or no innocent Gazans. It’s despicable either way, and if it’s coming from a person of faith - Jewish, Muslim, or Christian, then they are directly violating the will of God. (Gen 18:17 ff)
If they are a Kahanist or Hamas supporter, then they are in favor of literal terrorism.
First part everyone would agree. Second part, no way in hell.
Hamas is also the government, which means they are government employees who have never taken a gun or done anything. But you go beyond and call every supporter of them “in favor of literal terrorism”
It’s like blaming all jews and supporters of judaism for the action of zionists
It is a pointless view that solves nothing. Flip it around, say “all (on both sides) are not guilty” and you might have a starting point.
The idea of free will is unfalsifiable. So far, there is no evidence that there is anything causing conscious beyond, physical, chemical interactions. This means, that most likely, humans do not have free will. Every action, every thought, is caused by some chemical, or physical thing, and is ultimately predetermined.
The idea of “guilt” is born out of the idea that humans have free will, and are therefore culpable for “bad” or “immoral” actions. But humans do not have free will. Punishing a “guilty” person, is actually just inflicting suffering on the qualia, or the conscious experience of someone, for circumstances completely out of anyone’s control, including themselves.
I believe that all people are innocent. Every act of violence should be evaluated as if it was being done against an innocent person. The only difference between a killer and a saint is that of brain chemistry.
As for Israel specifically, since that is a different question than the nature of innocent, here is my reply:
- Israel funded and supported Hamas to undermine Palestinian authority
- Israel had extensive knowledge on Hamas’ capabilities beforehand, but “accidentally” ignored warning signs
I see a few people blaming Hamas for Oct 7th. I disagree. When a dog bites someone, do you blame the dog or the owner?
This robs Hamas of their heroism. The flood wasn’t just animals escaping their cage, it was a strategic defeat of the most advanced border wall in the world. They overcame incredible odds to break through it into the land that was stolen from them.
And Hamas didn’t break in to randomly kill people. They wanted hostages to exchange for the hostages Israel had. With that in mind, most of the deaths might very well have been inflicted by the IDF under the Hannibal directive to deprive Hamas of hostages.
The flood wasn’t just animals escaping their cage, it was a strategic defeat of the most advanced border wall in the world. They overcame incredible odds to break through it into the land that was stolen from them.
Sure. This claim might even be true. And you’re right, it’s not fair to compare real people, fighting for their lives, to “dogs”.
But it doesn’t undo what Hamas did to innocent* people, nor does it undo the fact that the Israeli government funded, supported, and propped up Hamas while suppressing the actual Palestinian parties.
*lmao I just said I didn’t believe in innocence.
Hamas is an actual Palestinian Party. The people in Gaza support them, regardless of the fact that Israel cynically empowered them to divide Gaza from the West Bank. A guerilla force can not survive without mass support.
